Discard Other People's Tasks

Samantha Bauer(00:00.768)
Welcome back to Sisters in Law of Attraction. I'm Sam. And we're so excited and thrilled that you joined us today. Christine, it's always a pleasure to see you. Your cute little face.

Christine Goforth(00:04.04)
And I'm Christine.

Christine Goforth(00:11.027)
It is so good to see you. I'm so happy to be here with you.

Samantha Bauer(00:15.222)
Well, you know, last time we really got into it. We're making our way through the book, The Courage to Be Disliked, the Japanese phenomenon that shows you how to change your life and achieve real happiness. And we're having a lot of fun kind of walking through some of these concepts that at first were met with some resistance, and I will.

Christine Goforth(00:36.521)
I did resist a little.

Samantha Bauer(00:39.126)
And you know what? That's okay because we're gonna get into some concepts that I really had some resistance to. So we're gonna.

Christine Goforth(00:47.303)
There were a few where I was like, ooh, I wonder how Sam feels about this. The getting into the competition of it all. Yeah. I love it.

Samantha Bauer(00:52.158)
Right. Yes. Yes. So like we said last time, the book is brilliant. The authors Kishimi and Koga explain these very complicated psychology concepts through the Adlerian psychology. And they present it through a conversation between a young man and a philosopher. And it's organized in five nights of discussions. And so we've gone over their first two nights of discussions, and so the episode today is about their third night of discussion, and it's about discarding other people's tasks. Last time we talked about life tasks being work tasks, friendship tasks, love tasks. Those are all the tasks that we have. And then at the end of the day, our only two major purposes, or goals, are that we become self-reliant and we live in harmony with society.

Christine Goforth(01:38.631)
Mm. Yeah.

Christine Goforth(01:49.121)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Goforth(02:05.396)
Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(02:06.277)
So we kind of talked a little bit about that. So this conversation between the philosopher and the young man talks about how you have to literally give up other people's tasks. And we're gonna get into where I was resistant because they use the parent-child relationship quite a bit.

Christine Goforth(02:26.192)
Yes. I fear that's kind of part of what started this podcast, right?

Samantha Bauer(02:32.145)
Right. No, for sure. There's definitely themes there. But I kinda wanted to start by really dovetailing on last time. There's a quote in the book. He says, even if you are avoiding your life tasks and clinging to your life lies, it isn't because you are steeped in evil. It is only an issue of courage.

Christine Goforth(02:57.556)
Hmm, I like that.

Samantha Bauer(02:59.679)
And that theme of courage comes out in this next section of the book. The philosopher picks up the discussion from where we talked about life tasks and feelings of inferiority and superiority. And he begins to say that we need to deny the desire for recognition.

Christine Goforth(03:23.09)
Mm-hmm. Don't get the validation from outside sources. Yes. Yes.

Samantha Bauer(03:27.627)
Right. And we'll get into it a little bit more, but essentially what that means is if you live for recognition and reward, you're living other people's lives. You're not living your own.

Christine Goforth(03:45.623)
Right. I tell my kids all the time, if you're trying to please everybody, you're pleasing nobody. You are trying to change who you are and sacrificing maybe what you want, to please and live according to how other people think that you should be living or choices that you should be making. And that's not what we do here.

Samantha Bauer(03:53.921)
Yep. Yep.

Samantha Bauer(04:11.351)
Yeah, exactly. And he poses the question, what is it about our interpersonal relationships that are robbing us of our freedom? And he talks about Adlerian psychology denying the need to seek recognition from others and not to live to satisfy expectations of others, because again, you're living their values, not your own. And then people suffer from it. You try to be the be-all end-all for everyone, and like you said, if you're just a people pleaser, then you're just not living your own authentic life.

Christine Goforth(04:36.736)
Right.

Christine Goforth(04:51.499)
You yourself will absolutely never find happiness if you are constantly trying to please or live in accordance with somebody else and their beliefs in their life.

Samantha Bauer(05:03.379)
Exactly. And in fact he was very critical of the reward punishment education. So people are either motivated to do certain behaviors with a reward, or right.

Christine Goforth(05:18.017)
Sure. Incentive. Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(05:23.847)
Or they would avoid certain behaviors to avoid the punishment. And so he says, for example, if no one is going to praise me, I won't take appropriate action. Like if I'm not gonna get the praise and the recognition and the reward, then I'm just not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do the appropriate action. And then also if no one will punish me, I'm just gonna go ahead and take the inappropriate action.

Christine Goforth(05:29.482)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Christine Goforth(05:50.776)
Doesn't that kind of tie hand in hand with integrity? Doing the right thing when no one's watching. And if you're only doing things for the recognition, for the validation, not only does it leave you feeling empty inside when those voices go quiet, but go ahead, sorry.

Samantha Bauer(06:12.875)
No, that's so true. And so like me, the young man in the book, he's really struggling with this. And he's like, no, I'm not buying it. So the philosopher talks about how you have to separate tasks. He makes the assertion that all problems in interpersonal relationships are caused by intruding on other people's tasks or having one's own tasks intruded on.

Christine Goforth(06:34.259)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(06:46.421)
Two kind of fun little examples. My son Max is looking for a new place to live, starting for the new school year in August. And of course we're almost a month plus out. And so it's like, what are we doing? And so I asked him and he sent me his original plan, which was to just have one roommate. Now he's moving towards having three roommates and a bigger property.

Christine Goforth(06:57.495)
We're getting there.

Samantha Bauer(07:16.345)
And so of course I look at the listings and I went, mmm, okay. And then I caught myself because this is his life task, to find the right living situation. I clearly have an opinion, but because I'm learning Adlerian psychology, I caught myself and I just said, I believe that you'll make the right decision for you. That was my response.

Christine Goforth(07:25.279)
Yep.

Christine Goforth(07:34.122)
Yes.

Christine Goforth(07:45.474)
How difficult though to sit back, especially the older our kids get, the higher the stakes. You can let them try and fail if they say, I'm not gonna do my homework tonight, I'll do it in the morning before school. And you wanna say, you're not gonna have enough time. But the older they get, the higher the stakes. So you're like, I just don't want my.

Samantha Bauer(07:51.063)
Yep.

Samantha Bauer(08:07.777)
Right.

Christine Goforth(08:13.353)
Son to be homeless. Can we have housing lined up, please? But according to this, no. And also how freeing, kind of, right?

Samantha Bauer(08:16.81)
Right. Exactly.

Samantha Bauer(08:21.249)
Right. That would be intruding on his life task.

Samantha Bauer(08:27.073)
Yeah. No, absolutely. And we'll get into the whole freedom part too. Another example is my daughter was leaving for a flight, and I didn't think she was leaving in the appropriate amount of time given traffic and all these variables. And she's like, Mom, I've got it. Don't worry about me. I got it. And I said, okay. And I just said, I believe in you. And of course, literally right before we got on here, she texts me and she's freaking out because guess what? She may not make her flight tonight. And then of course she wanted to blame this and that, and I said, you own this. You own this one.

Christine Goforth(09:11.677)
Yeah. Well, listen, we can advise. We can make sure, hey, I've lived a few extra years, maybe just make sure you're taking into account the traffic and the whatever else. And then you've said your piece. And then it's hands off. And she scrambled. And you know what?

Samantha Bauer(09:20.289)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(09:38.123)
Right, exactly. Yep.

Christine Goforth(09:41.617)
She might miss her flight and that's gonna suck. But she's gonna learn a heck of a lot more than, you know. She'll learn a lesson.

Samantha Bauer(09:49.814)
Right. And I think that was where I really struggled with this example of no praise and no punishment too, because he basically says you're manipulating another's behavior by doing that.

Christine Goforth(10:01.799)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(10:11.614)
Interesting.

Samantha Bauer(10:12.809)
And so I'm like, okay, this is a little hard to swallow as a parent because we want them to do X, Y, and Z so that this will happen and that will happen. But he says, like with their homework, that's their life task. And so it's not up to you to scream and yell and say, get it done, get it done. It's up to them. They're the one that will face the consequence. And so therefore, it is their life task. So it's really hard to kind of swallow.

Christine Goforth(10:18.291)
Sure.

Christine Goforth(10:27.83)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(10:37.503)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(10:44.469)
Well, and as a substitute teacher, and I'm certain as many professions can say, you can definitely tell the people whose parents do not know how to separate tasks at all. Because then you're turning them into the.

Samantha Bauer(10:56.818)
Right. It is. Well, yeah, I mean, shocking.

Christine Goforth(11:04.899)
Well, I just didn't have enough time. I just, I had practice really late and so I couldn't do it and my mom said that it was gonna be fine because I'm so special and I'm your favorite and like, no.

Samantha Bauer(11:15.713)
Yeah. Right. No, the world doesn't actually work like that.

Christine Goforth(11:22.271)
No.

Samantha Bauer(11:24.097)
There's a piece in here that I wanted to read that I thought kind of illuminated what we were just talking about about others' tasks. And it says, intervening in other people's tasks and taking on other people's tasks turns one's life into something heavy and full of hardship. If you are leading a life of worry and suffering, which stems from interpersonal relationships, and we already established that interpersonal relationships are the source of all of our problems.

Christine Goforth(11:50.101)
Are the basis of, yep, basically.

Samantha Bauer(11:53.74)
Yeah. He says, learn the boundary of from here on, that is not my task. And discard other people's tasks. That is the first step toward lightening the load and making life simpler. And reading that reminded me of a former colleague of mine. He was in a leadership position and he was telling his leaders that it's really critical for you not to put other people's crap in your backpack. People are gonna wanna unload, they're gonna wanna put their crap in your backpack. Don't do it. You only carry your stuff, they carry theirs.

Christine Goforth(11:59.175)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(12:26.198)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(12:30.588)
Mm-hmm. That is such a good way of putting it too. Because I think that certain personality types, whether it's the Enneagram or whatever you want to call them, there are certain people who are more absorbent of that. And perhaps it's a skill that we could all work on, because it's so easy to kind of absorb that.

Samantha Bauer(12:48.428)
Yes.

Christine Goforth(12:57.79)
And then you're carrying it. And it might not be this overt voice of, gosh, so and so had a really bad day at school or they're having a really hard time with this account at work. It's not this loud voice. It's the thought every few hours, I hope that person, I wonder whatever happened with that. Gosh, I wonder. And it's 15 people's little pieces of baggage that you've now absorbed and all of a sudden it's not so light combined with whatever you're personally dealing with. So I would say that learning to.

Samantha Bauer(12:57.996)
Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(13:15.255)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(13:29.931)
Yep. Mm-hmm. Right, exactly.

Christine Goforth(13:45.361)
Learning to create those boundaries, let's call them what they are, boundaries or tasks. Learning those and how to separate them is so beneficial to both parties. And what a beautiful way to deepen a relationship too, to be able to say, you know what? Anything that I do, I have control of.

Samantha Bauer(13:59.818)
Absolutely.

Christine Goforth(14:12.796)
If I have hurt your feelings, I take ownership of my part in that. And I trust that you will now take ownership of whatever side, you know.

Samantha Bauer(14:12.961)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(14:23.851)
Right. Own it. And I've said this many times too in certain relationships. It's like if you feel a certain way, you dislike me or dislike something I said or did, it sounds kind of heartless, but that's kind of a you problem. I'm me, and if you dislike me.

Christine Goforth(14:25.748)
Yeah, yep.

Christine Goforth(14:43.584)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(14:50.443)
That's a you problem. That's a you task. That's your task.

Christine Goforth(14:51.744)
So you get to remove yourself from my orbit, right?

Samantha Bauer(14:58.165)
Right. But whether you like me or dislike me, that's your task. And that's a perfect segue into what they get into in the conversation between the young man and the philosopher, which is that the philosopher says whether someone likes or dislikes you is that person's task, not yours. You can't make someone like you. That is not your task.

Christine Goforth(15:17.302)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(15:21.034)
Right, right.

Samantha Bauer(15:21.857)
That's on that person to have a task of, do I like this person, do I dislike this person? And so they start to get into the crux of the book, The Courage to Be Disliked.

Christine Goforth(15:32.042)
Well, because how exhausting is it to constantly seek validation from other people? Try and try and try and want for this relationship or this person to like you. You can't make somebody like you.

Samantha Bauer(15:48.994)
Right, exactly. You can only own your stuff and whether people are drawn to you or they're not. And that's okay. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm okay.

Christine Goforth(15:58.133)
Right. Well, and like I tell my kids, the right ones will stick and everything else will fall away.

Samantha Bauer(16:08.149)
Right. And to your point, if you worry about how people think about you, you haven't done the separation task. You've put power into that other person.

Christine Goforth(16:22.56)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(16:23.553)
And now you're being owned because you didn't separate the task. And so now you're spending your life trying to please people so that they like you and you're not authentic in your life. And so the young man is increasingly getting irritated with the discussion because he doesn't see how separating yourself from caring is healthy. You should care, right? You should care about how other people feel about you, how that is part of a successful relationship.

Christine Goforth(16:32.224)
Right.

Christine Goforth(16:47.581)
Right, right.

Samantha Bauer(16:53.327)
So they're going back and forth, and the young man's not totally buying it because he's like, really, you told me to separate these tasks. Now you're telling me that everyone should dislike me. He's just like, if that's part of freedom, I don't want any part of it. And you hit on this a little bit too. The philosopher talks about the importance of distance in a relationship, that being too close or too far has an impact on the success of that relationship. And the parent-child relationship is a perfect example of that. If you've got parents too much up their kids' butt, then that's a little too close.

Christine Goforth(17:10.226)
No thank you.

Christine Goforth(17:21.977)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(17:43.016)
It's a little too close and again you can tell the kids whose parents are up their butts. And it's not because their feet are sticking out.

Samantha Bauer(17:50.424)
Right. Exactly. So funny. So they get into, your desire for recognition makes you unfree. You don't have freedom to do whatever because you're so caught up in being liked and recognized. And so he says, okay, so what is real freedom? He gets into the concept of inclination by the modern philosopher Kant, who said that we are inclined to the desire of being liked. But to give in to these inclinations is to be a slave to your own desires to be liked.

Christine Goforth(18:31.542)
My gosh. How much work does one need to do though to get to the point where you just simply do not care one iota of what people think about you? That's got to be another level of.

Samantha Bauer(18:42.219)
Right. No, it's a total.

Samantha Bauer(18:48.821)
Enlightenment? Yeah. It's a very interesting thing. So they give an example of, let's say that you're a stone tumbling downhill and you're tumbling downhill because of gravity. Now that gravity is your inclination or desire to be liked. So we do have something in us, however, that.

Christine Goforth(18:49.64)
Enlightenment, yes.

Samantha Bauer(19:15.105)
We can push back on that. And that's where the real freedom comes in because we can push back against our desires. Because if you allow yourself to give in to the desire or inclination, then you are just a stone rolling downhill and you will be left smoothed out with all your unique edges gone. So now you're no longer authentically you, because you've given in to the desire to be liked and recognized.

Christine Goforth(19:22.368)
Okay.

Christine Goforth(19:40.128)
It's so funny. I was just gonna tie it all back to authenticity a couple minutes ago because that's really what it is. And again with my kids, one just finished freshman year and one's in middle school. So we're in the trenches, and the amount of times I have told them how proud of them I am for.

Samantha Bauer(19:47.947)
Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(20:05.964)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Goforth(20:07.337)
Not changing who they are. And listen, they didn't have a ton of friends and it's like, I would rather have you have a small group that you can be yourself around than change and have this big group of friends. And I know it looks fun from the outside but I promise you.

Samantha Bauer(20:23.148)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(20:35.925)
The majority of people are not feeling like they can be themselves. So where does that leave you? If we are in a relationship and you don't feel like you can be yourself, so you're pretending to be somebody else, I don't know you at all. And so it's.

Samantha Bauer(20:40.19)
Absolutely.

Samantha Bauer(20:51.787)
Right. It's a perfect example of what he's getting at. And just again about the courage. You do, you have to be courageous. And we're gonna get into it next episode on how you can access that courage. There's another really critical piece to this. But just really quickly, as you were talking, I remember when my daughter Maddie started law school, and it's just so funny that high school and even undergrad college dynamics and social politics still play in the professional schools.

Christine Goforth(20:59.04)
Right, right.

Christine Goforth(21:08.971)
Right.

Christine Goforth(21:27.393)
Isn't that funny? I mean even as you grow up, you're like, how old are we?

Samantha Bauer(21:32.078)
Yeah. Right. So there's a colleague of hers that reached out to her right before school started and this gal definitely was the Queen Bee. And so she created her posse and she decided Maddie was gonna be in it and she dictated the social events on Friday and Saturday nights and who was gonna hang out with who. Well, that didn't work for Maddie because she's very independent and she was never gonna go along with the group anyway. So this young woman decided that.

Christine Goforth(21:41.623)
Mm.

Christine Goforth(22:00.415)
No.

Samantha Bauer(22:03.491)
She disliked Maddie. Maddie was okay with that. Like, cool. But also this young woman dictated all of the girls that could not hang out with Maddie. And this is happening.

Christine Goforth(22:07.265)
Whatever.

Christine Goforth(22:19.667)
That is in law school.

Samantha Bauer(22:21.897)
In law school, right? And so you look at just the insecurity of this young woman where she had to manufacture a social group even before the first day of class.

Christine Goforth(22:33.611)
Right. That makes my heart so sad for people who feel like they have to live like that. That seems exhausting.

Samantha Bauer(22:45.843)
Exactly. And yeah, so fascinating concepts. I am so enjoying this book and learning, because again, there's a lot that has challenged me in my parenting relationship and really helping me on that transition into young adults, because yes, it works.

Christine Goforth(22:58.239)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(23:09.269)
When your kids are little, it worked really well when they were babies and toddlers in elementary school. It gets a little more challenging in the middle school years and the high school years. And so if you just look at that as that sort of, more and more transitioning and less intervening in their life tasks, then they know that they're self-reliant and they know that they can live in harmony with society all on their own and without mom and dad.

Christine Goforth(23:10.858)
Sure.

Christine Goforth(23:14.229)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(23:36.437)
Yes. And to that, I want them to always know we will always be a backstop, but we are not going to be interfering.

Samantha Bauer(23:45.747)
Exactly. Because you believe in them. You have a belief they have that self-efficacy to navigate.

Christine Goforth(23:48.289)
Right. Well, and I trust that we did a good job parenting them thus far, that they will make decisions and no matter what, they'll either deal with the consequences or they'll celebrate the right choice.

Samantha Bauer(24:05.479)
Exactly. Right. That's the beauty of life. Well, we're well on our way to getting that courage to be disliked and just really having a good time with this book. So next time we're gonna get into their fourth night of discussion and there's some more fun concepts there, but for now we'll leave it there. This is Sisters in Law of Attraction. I'm Sam and we'll see you next time.

Christine Goforth(24:11.628)
Cool.

Christine Goforth(24:16.991)
Yeah, it's good. I've been enjoying the ride with you.

Christine Goforth(24:31.569)
And I'm Christine. Bye.

Samantha Bauer(24:34.668)
Bye.