It's Not About You

Samantha Bauer(00:01.026)
Welcome back to Sisters in Law of Attraction. I'm Sam.

Christine Goforth(00:04.453)
I'm Christine.

Samantha Bauer(00:05.792)
And we're so happy to be back with you. We are making our way through this book called The Courage to Be Disliked. And we're now on to their fourth night of discussion. We're having so much fun kind of diving into what they call Adlerian psychology and really learning how to sort of unshackle yourself from others' expectations and your need to be liked, quite frankly, by others, and how truly free we can be. So anyhow, Christine, I think this fourth night, there's really some concepts in here that I think will really illuminate some of this thinking, and really how in the world can you do what they're calling separation of tasks. We all have our own task, and the problems in interpersonal relationships come in when we interfere in others' tasks, or

Christine Goforth(00:56.86)
Yes.

Samantha Bauer(01:05.666)
our own tasks are being intruded upon, right?

Christine Goforth(01:08.712)
I can absolutely see that. Just think about how when you are the one taking on somebody else's task, how quickly do you do that without knowing? And how quickly does that turn into resentment? That's also one thing I was thinking about after our last conversation too.

Samantha Bauer(01:29.662)
Absolutely, right? You take on the responsibility for others thinking that you're helping them, and in the end you're hurting them because you're taking away their self efficacy, right? That they really see that they're capable of doing this without outside help. And again, there's a fine line too, and we're gonna get into it here. You can provide assistance

Christine Goforth(01:59.228)
Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(02:00.21)
without interfering in the actual tasks. So it's not this total disconnect, right? And that's how the young man starts their fourth night, which they talk about the center of the world. And so the young man starts out, and we kind of hit on this last time, he's very skeptical, and now he's super irritated and frustrated with the philosopher, and he says, okay, I get the separation of tasks.

Christine Goforth(02:03.566)
Okay. Sure.

Samantha Bauer(02:26.722)
But it seems like a lonely way to live and it disconnects you from others. And you're telling me to be disliked by others. So if you're telling me this is freedom, again, I choose not to be free. This is no way to live.

Christine Goforth(02:39.228)
No thank you. Right. Lock me up. No.

Samantha Bauer(02:45.262)
So the philosopher takes a different tact. And he says that Adlerian psychology is really individual psychology. And individual means indivisible, right? You can't divide it, because Adler rejected dualism and anything that would separate mind from body. And so they talked about what was the goal, what's our goal of interpersonal relationships? And they said that the goal of interpersonal relationships is a feeling of community.

Christine Goforth(03:20.072)
Okay.

Samantha Bauer(03:22.508)
And then Adler maintains that community includes everything past and present and the entire universe, even objects and animals. And this is where a lot of people departed from him. But I can't accept that. Like really the universe and all the things past and present is my community. It kind of flies in the face of what we typically think our community is.

Christine Goforth(03:49.64)
Right, right, right. Yeah, that definitely goes past like your neighbors.

Samantha Bauer(03:55.707)
Right. For sure. Or like your school community. Your work community. Right. And so he starts, when you start, you know, the goal of interpersonal relationships is to get that feeling of community, and community again is the universe, all things past and present.

Christine Goforth(03:58.249)
Or the city, or your church community, yep, exactly, exactly. Okay.

Christine Goforth(04:18.118)
Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(04:19.66)
You know, that connects really to what Sisters in Law of Attraction is all about, right? The law of attraction and your vibration with the universe, that there's something larger than you. So it's really starting to connect the dots on those ideas. And again, he says interpersonal relationships are the source of all problems, but the flip side, interpersonal relationships are the source of all happiness.

Christine Goforth(04:47.4)
Okay, okay, okay.

Samantha Bauer(04:49.398)
Yep. And so the young man says, well, what do you mean having a feeling of community? Well, he says having a feeling of community is having an interest in society, that you have that feeling of community that you want to connect with someone else. And so

Christine Goforth(05:04.808)
Just a quick side note. When my youngest, or my oldest was pretty young, we would have big block sales and we would wake up really early. We would get all of our stuff out. We would make cinnamon rolls. They would be out there. Just the blocks were lined with cars and people, just walking around, and every year she'd be like,

Christine Goforth(05:37.959)
when are we gonna do that thing? I just love that community feeling. And she would say those words, community feeling. Like, I just love that community feeling. I'm like, so cute, yes. But it is, there is a feeling of being a part of something bigger and it does feel so good. And especially if you are contributing to that community and you're a part of it, and I think you've

Samantha Bauer(05:49.538)
That's, I love that. I absolutely love that.

Samantha Bauer(06:05.911)
Yes.

Christine Goforth(06:07.208)
realized that it's not about you. It's just bigger than one individual, obviously.

Samantha Bauer(06:11.064)
Yep. Right.

Samantha Bauer(06:16.504)
No, no, for sure. And so he talks about, then the young man asks the question, why am I only interested in myself? And so they talk about self-centered people. That of course self-centered people are people that are only interested in themselves, they put themselves first. But also those who are unable to separate tasks because they are obsessed with the desire for recognition is also a form of being self-centered.

Christine Goforth(06:42.918)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(06:47.126)
And so you think, I just want to please people. I want them to like me. That's actually being self-centered. You have not separated the task because you're so focused on the I. I want them to like me, and it's about me.

Christine Goforth(07:01.026)
Uh-huh. I want the validation. I want the recognition. I want to be the hero. I want to be the one who helped with the whatever, or I want to be the one who said I'll change my plans. I'll do the whatever it is. Continue.

Samantha Bauer(07:21.1)
Right. And I'm gonna read from the book really quick. He says, in the sense that you are concerned solely with the I, you are self-centered. You want to be thought well of by others, and that is why you worry about the way they look at you. This is not concern for others, it is nothing but attachment to self. So your wanting to be liked by others is your attachment to yourself.

Christine Goforth(07:49.448)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

Samantha Bauer(07:51.381)
And so that was a really good explanation of why we think we're at the center of the world. And so the philosopher talks about commitment to community, and instead of asking what others can do or give us, we should be asking what can I give this person. And so we've hit on this before, Christine. When cute little Max was cute little Max as a little guy, like why am I here, mommy? And I said, you're here to lift others, right? You're here to serve

Christine Goforth(08:21.49)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(08:27.818)
and lift others. And so that's that commitment to community, that you don't go around asking what can they do for me, it's what can I do for them.

Christine Goforth(08:38.312)
Right, right. And I am kind of doing some research. It was a lot of, it's not about competition. It's not about wanting to stand out. It's coming to the situation, and like you said, how can I contribute? How can I cooperate in this community? How can I be a benefit to something while not getting anything out of it? Right? Nothing in return.

Samantha Bauer(09:05.58)
Right. Right. Exactly. And so the young man presses the philosopher for more explanation. Okay, like how do you do this? Live free by allowing others to dislike you, separate tasks, but also have a commitment to community. And the answer is to build what he calls horizontal relationships. And in this he says, you do not praise nor rebuke.

Christine Goforth(09:26.706)
Okay.

Samantha Bauer(09:33.771)
So this is where again I was like, in the parent-child relationship, I raised my kids all the time to encourage them to keep that behavior going, and

Christine Goforth(09:47.814)
behavior going, right? That's.

Samantha Bauer(09:51.527)
Yeah, and so Adlerian psychology literally says you should resist this in child rearing. And this again, I was just like, okay. But it's because Adler really rejected that reward punishment education. And so this is called what they call, when you're praising or rebuking somebody, it's a vertical relationship, meaning there's a hierarchy.

Christine Goforth(10:15.814)
Okay. Like a parent, child, boss, employee. Sure.

Samantha Bauer(10:21.11)
Right. And so in praise there's an element of talking down to your child, you were such a good helper today. Would you say that to your husband if he helped clean up the kitchen? You're such a good helper today. No, you wouldn't.

Christine Goforth(10:33.415)
Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(10:37.302)
Because it's kind of condescending, right? And you're sort of like, but parent behavior is very much that because you want to reward good behavior. But again, it's a form of manipulation is what Adler says. And so again in these vertical relationships, you're creating a hierarchy to them. And so

Christine Goforth(10:47.432)
Sure, sure. Mm-hmm. Oh gosh.

Samantha Bauer(11:03.15)
in a horizontal relationship there's an equality, right, so that you can provide assistance, and that's where the encouragement comes in. And so in a horizontal relationship you're not praising, you're not rebuking, there's no reward, there's no punishment, but you're providing assistance that is in the form of encouragement. And then I was like,

Christine Goforth(11:21.456)
Okay.

Samantha Bauer(11:31.17)
there's that word, courage, is nested in encouragement. So what are you doing in that horizontal relationship? You're encouraging someone to be courageous to do their life tasks, right? And so it's helping them to find that courage.

Christine Goforth(11:33.766)
Hmm, encouragement, yep.

Christine Goforth(11:49.775)
So would you say it is just a matter of words chosen? Would you say it's kind of like, in parenting, you don't say, or in teaching or whatever it is, you don't say, you did such a good job at that. It's, you worked really hard, or, your art is perfect. It's,

Samantha Bauer(12:01.324)
Yes. Yeah.

Christine Goforth(12:17.666)
I love the colors that you picked out. What were you thinking when you chose those? Okay.

Samantha Bauer(12:23.596)
Yeah, good example. Because you're giving efficacy to their effort, to the work, not the outcome. No, it's a really good example.

Christine Goforth(12:29.384)
to the work, not the outcome. Yeah, yep, yep. Which I love when it ties back into other themes that we've talked about. Like, yes. I mean, the value is not in the outcome. It is in the work done.

Samantha Bauer(12:40.151)
Right, right. It's it's

Samantha Bauer(12:49.558)
Right. And to go back to the denying of the trauma, right? When we started this conversation, that was the first part of the book, and the meaning that you attach to whatever happens to you in life, right? And if you focus on the cause, well, I'm a depressed person because my parents are mean to me or someone beat me up or whatever. You are attaching meaning to it and focusing on the cause. And you're using it as an excuse for your behavior.

Christine Goforth(13:04.678)
Yeah. Right.

Samantha Bauer(13:24.514)
And so he gives another example, I think, that was really good. The young man was saying, okay, so he was trying to apply some of these concepts. And he says, okay, let's assume that I have a job where I've got this awful boss, and he does not treat me right, and he talks down to me, and he's just a horrible person to me. And so it impacts my ability to do a good job. And so the philosopher challenges him and he says, you made up in your head that you have an awful boss because you needed an excuse to not do a good job, because either you don't want to work, or maybe you don't feel like you have the ability to. So you've created a reason, an excuse.

Christine Goforth(14:12.936)
Hmm.

Christine Goforth(14:16.57)
Interesting.

Samantha Bauer(14:17.886)
And yeah, I mean it's fairly simple but really hard to wrap your head around because it's so different than how

Christine Goforth(14:28.878)
It's so opposite of how, I think, how society teaches you to be, right? You perform for the audience. You do this, you obey your parents. You listen to the teacher. You do your best. You don't want to disappoint anybody, right? How many times are you told that as you're growing up? Like you don't,

Samantha Bauer(14:35.342)
How society works. Right. Yeah.

Christine Goforth(14:56.594)
don't disappoint me or I don't wanna be disappointed in you. It would be, it's got to take a lot of inner work to get to a point where you simply do not care what people think about you or your decisions, your life choices, anything.

Samantha Bauer(15:18.796)
Right. And it comes down again to that separation of task. So yes, you can say I don't care, but it's more of, I don't have any agency over how you

Christine Goforth(15:22.672)
Right, right. Sure, sure.

Samantha Bauer(15:33.273)
think of me, right? And so it's like I just have to separate that task, and again, you do you, boo-boo. And if you dislike me or like me, that's on you. That's not on me. And I don't own that piece. So there's this one

Christine Goforth(15:44.316)
Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(15:50.799)
part here that kind of brings it all together. And so the philosopher says, when one is not following through with one's task, it is not because one is without ability. Adlerian psychology tells us that the issue here is not one of ability, but simply that one has lost the courage to face one's task. And if that is the case, the thing to do before anything else is to recover that lost courage. And so this, I mean, I

Christine Goforth(16:18.311)
Mmm.

Samantha Bauer(16:20.752)
I think it was probably one of our first episodes, Christine, where we talked about fear, right? Fear of the unknown, fear of success, fear of this, fear of that, and how debilitating that fear is. Well, what's the opposite of fear? Courage. And so you see that courage piece continue, because it does take courage to walk through this life. And again, it's the name of the book, The Courage to Be Disliked.

Christine Goforth(16:21.286)
I love that. Yep.

Christine Goforth(16:33.383)
Courage. Yep.

Christine Goforth(16:49.824)
Right. Gosh, why do I feel like this should be in schools? Everybody needs to read this book. Honestly.

Samantha Bauer(16:53.838)
You might. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean it's been an eye opener for me. But so then we come to this issue of self-worth, and it's only when a person is able to feel that he has worth that he can possess courage. Okay, so you don't just have courage, right? You have to

Christine Goforth(17:15.015)
Mm. Sure. No, you have to know that you're worthy of the outcome that you're courageous in getting.

Samantha Bauer(17:24.978)
Exactly, exactly. And so he says, meaning he has something to offer, right? And so you feel that worth that you have something, like you've already said, Christine, to contribute to the community, to society. And then when one feels beneficial to a community, that is how one gains self-worth. And when I read that, what struck me again is the mental health crisis

Christine Goforth(17:36.507)
Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(17:54.885)
in our young people and the impact of social media and all of that. And they say, like, just get out and serve others.

Christine Goforth(18:03.367)
I just had this conversation with one of my daughters today. She has been feeling very down, and it was not until she'd come downstairs later, we had a really good conversation. And I said, next time you are feeling a little bit down, or she gets thoughts in her head and likes to spiral. I don't know where she got that.

Samantha Bauer(18:10.605)
Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(18:27.65)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(18:30.777)
No, but I do love that I have done the work because now I'm much better able to help her through. But anyway, yes, exactly. And I said, next time this happens, I want you to just paint some rocks with encouraging messages and go put them out at the park. I want you to go to one of our neighbors and ask if you can weed their garden.

Samantha Bauer(18:38.424)
To assist and encourage. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(18:53.42)
Yeah.

Christine Goforth(18:57.025)
I don't care. Write your grandma a note and put it in the mailbox so that she gets it. Anything, something that

Samantha Bauer(19:03.341)
Right.

Christine Goforth(19:06.627)
gets you out of your own head and it makes you realize that there are other people that have bigger problems than you. It gets you out of your head because it feels good to do good for other people. It feels good to help, to serve others like you said. And I think that that is such a huge piece. It's a huge piece of community and it's a huge piece of mental health, to your point.

Samantha Bauer(19:15.822)
Sure.

Samantha Bauer(19:21.772)
Right, right.

Samantha Bauer(19:26.668)
Right. Right.

Samantha Bauer(19:35.206)
Absolutely. Right. And of course, I gotta be careful to not bash on social media too much. It's a reality. It's a reality, but it's

Christine Goforth(19:43.478)
I know. It is a necessary evil at this point, and maybe not even that. I don't know.

Samantha Bauer(19:49.123)
But if you look at it in these terms of community, it's like a fake community, you know? And it rewards that individualness and a fake community, and then takes energy away from the other,

Christine Goforth(19:56.539)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Goforth(20:09.54)
your real community.

Samantha Bauer(20:10.924)
your real communities, where you again gain your self worth, which in turn gives you courage to do your life's task. So I'll touch and go on the social media, 'cause hey, I love,

Christine Goforth(20:23.66)
We could do, honestly, we could probably do a social media series if we're being honest.

Samantha Bauer(20:30.218)
I can do a total doom scroll and get down the drain like no one's business. So I'm, you know,

Christine Goforth(20:36.454)
I've had to actively stop. I told my 13 year old, I think I might have to take this off my phone for a little bit.

Samantha Bauer(20:45.068)
Yeah, I know, 'cause it just kinda sucks you in. Gosh. I know.

Christine Goforth(20:47.684)
Well, and it's the stupid algorithm, because the algorithm, it just, you just have to remind yourself at some point you are in an echo chamber and you're only reading what you want to be reading because it's what you've been reading. So.

Samantha Bauer(21:02.07)
Right, exactly. And then of course I think it's like you're being manipulated too, so.

Christine Goforth(21:08.268)
A hundred percent. Absolutely. A hundred and fifty percent.

Samantha Bauer(21:14.102)
So it looks like we have to wrap, which is good because we've gotten to the end of this discussion, but I wanted to close. So again, just very quickly to our listeners, why is your self-worth so important? Well, you need to feel self-worth to have that courage to do your life's tasks, work tasks, friendship tasks, love task, and to do your two things, right? What are those two things? To be self-reliant and to live in harmony in society. So it's all part of contributing to the happiness. And so the philosopher says, it is about having concern for others, building horizontal relationships, and taking the approach of encouragement. All these things connect to the deep life awareness of I am of use to someone, and in turn to your courage to live. So

Christine Goforth(22:07.397)
Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bauer(22:08.372)
anyhow, I think that discussion really started to kind of coalesce around the whole purpose, the thesis of the book, how to get that courage to be disliked and the importance of being disliked. Which is weird. Which is so weird.

Christine Goforth(22:21.326)
Yeah, I kind of went along this journey with you. I think I'm going to have to actually dig in with a highlighter and annotate and read in depth because this is definitely work that I want, I definitely want to be better at. I feel like everybody, right? I mean, I don't know a single person who can say that they

Samantha Bauer(22:36.051)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Samantha Bauer(22:46.998)
Yeah. No, I mean there's a lot to it.

Christine Goforth(22:56.154)
just don't even really think about how others view them. Anyway, we, I know we're out of time, but we can talk all day.

Samantha Bauer(22:57.933)
Right.

Samantha Bauer(23:01.258)
Right. Yeah. No, there's just so much to talk about here. But next time we are going to dive into the fifth and final night of discussion where all these concepts are gonna come together. But to your point, Christine, I have incorporated this book in my morning ritual. So after my gratitude journal, then I get this out and I read in it, but I don't sit down and read

Christine Goforth(23:20.922)
Good, okay.

Samantha Bauer(23:28.608)
a lot, right? Because, and I'm also

Christine Goforth(23:29.484)
No, I think it's a dense book, very dense content, I feel.

Samantha Bauer(23:36.546)
Yes. Yeah. So I spent probably fifteen, twenty minutes reading and then writing notes and kind of reflecting on it. So anyhow, that brings us to the end here, and we can't wait to welcome you back next time. This is Sisters in Law of Attraction. I'm Sam. And we'll see you next time. Bye.

Christine Goforth(23:54.68)
And I'm Christine. Bye.